:senberniu diskusijos

[def]

na chebra jomajo....pagal tai kokius zodzius vartojat,kaip formulojat mintis na rodos protingi zmones esate,bet ble,nx,pzdc,negaliu nesikeikt, protingi zmones esat bet tokias nesamones rasot ,byby dejau...kazkur teko skaityt kad didelis protas dar nereiskia kad zmogus ira is tiesu protingas...zodziu isvis jus nenumanot apie dieva,pochui ta religija!!dievas!!! stai kas svarbiausia!!!!!...dievas ira zmonijos tevas todel naturalu kiekvenam,absoliuciai kiekvenam ieskot dieva,cia deja pasirinkimo nera,taip pat kaip tevu negali pasirinkt,geri ar blogi,jie ira ir taskas!!!...matau kad ne vienas is jusu netiki dievu,stai tau ir ptotas ble:)..o as netikiu o zinau kad dievas ira...mano nuomone apie jusu juodai nukrito, nors vienas butu ka nors rimto parases o tai kuriat visokias nesamoningas,apgailetinas teorijas...senberniai jus senberniai,egoizmas uzvaldes jus konkreciai o ego ir ira tas velnias kuris skiria zmogu nuo dievo..esate kvailiai ir visas protas jusu vertas nulio jei jis remiasi ego!!!!...na pzdc,man geda but senberniu

[Adutis]

sunku tau, def, pariniesi kažkotai, nerviniesi... :)
"dievas ira žmonijos tevas" - o va čia tai cool mintis!... jos dėka turiu šansų tapti antruoju nušvitusiu žmogum Lietuvoje po Lino Karaliaus...

[foma]

..yra dievulis ir ufonautai bo kosmose dafiga vietos...

[boro]

[VolkHan]

[s2]

ne, nu kodėl, yra čia tikinčių dievo buvimu. yra atsiverčiama į dievą tada, kai jis paaiškina tas gyvenimo detales, kurių niekas kitas įtikinamai nepaaiškina.

pvz. man nu labai daug ką paaiškina The Matrix filmo pirmoji dalis ir visa virtualizavimo idėja. paaiškina netgi tai, kas krikščioniškojoje dievo sistemoje buvo neaišku.

[bro1]

As tai pries savaite islamu pradejau dometis (na grynai del to, kad pamatyciau kuo jie tiki)... fak kokie jie fanatikai beveik visi (na bent jau tie kur forumuose diskutuoja)...

Na bet juokingiausiai skaitosi man tai, kaip krikscionys su musulmonais gincijasi kokias nors religiniais klausimais (www.islam.com forume).

Pvz:

katalikas: Jezus buvo Dievas, Dievo sunus
muslumonas: ne, Jezus buvo pranasas, o be to jusu biblija iskraipyta
katalikas: ne, neikskraipyta
musulmonas: galvok, kaip nori

arba

musulmonas: pas jus yra trys dievai, kokiom cia jus nesamonem tikit
katalikas: ne pas mus yra vienas dievas
musulmonas: ne jusu biblija yra iskraipyta

arba

kataliko rasinelis:
Korane parasyta, kad zeme plokscia, o stai biblijoj parasyta, kad apvali.

arba

musulmono rasinelis:
ramadanas - tai pasninkavimo ir pagalbos vargsams menuo ir turi daug daugiau prasmes negu katalikiskos misios, kurios yra tik kunigu spektaklis

na ir labiausiai mane pralinksmines teiginys:

Pasak gydytojų ir medicinos ekspertu – kiauliena yra zalinga. Jos vartojimas mazina zmogaus dvasinius bei moralinius gabumus.

:))

Vien zo, as tuos komentarus skaitau ir garsiai juokiuos :)
_________________
islamas.lt: "Vartojama kiauliena pamažu slopina gėdos jausmą"

[bro1]

[Exuss]

[bro1]

[s2]

man tai atrodo, kad def-as pavarė ironijos. :-)

[Ishka]

stai idomus straipsnis sia tema is zurnalo New Scientist. gal kam nors sukels idomiu minciu. idedu visa straipsni,nes jis yra 'special content' ir pasiekiamas tik su slaptazodziu,jei per daug vietos uzima gal reikia kur nors kitur ideti......

...................................................................................

Belief special: How evolution found God

* 28 January 2006
* Robin Dunbar

Robin Dunbar is professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Liverpool, UK, and co-director of the British Academy's Centenary Research Project "Lucy to language: the archaeology of the social brain". His most recent book, The Human Story, is published by Faber and Faber


RELIGIOUS belief is a conundrum. In our everyday lives, most of us make at least some effort to check the truth of claims for ourselves. Yet when it comes to religion, studies show that we are most persuaded by stories that contradict the known laws of physics. Tales of supernatural beings walking on water, raising the dead, passing through walls, foretelling the future, and the like, are universally popular. At the same time, however, we expect our gods to have normal human feelings and emotions. We like our miracles, and those who perform them, to have just the right mix of otherworldliness and everyday characteristics.

Why are we humans so willing to commit to religious beliefs we can never hope to verify? You might well think that question falls outside the realm of scientific investigation. Evolutionary biologists in particular have taken their cue from their own guru, Charles Darwin, and studiously ignored the whole issue of god. But now that is starting to change. It's not clear what has triggered the interest, but a significant factor has probably been the growing recognition that religion is a real evolutionary puzzle. On the face of it, religious behaviour seems to be at odds with everything we biologists hold dear. The reductionist view sees us as merely vehicles for our selfish genes - yet religions embrace charity to strangers, submission to the will of the community, and even martyrdom. No self-respecting baboon or chimpanzee would ever willingly kowtow to the good, the bad or the ugly in quite the same way humans do.

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block for evolutionary biologists has been recognising that religion might have a functional advantage. If a biological trait has evolved, we want to know what use it is - and by that we mean how does possessing this trait make an individual better adapted to survive and pass their genes on to the next generation. That's not always apparent where religion is concerned. But in recent years, evolutionary biologists including myself have come to realise that there are some important aspects of religion that do seem to have benefits.
“Being part of a group massively ratchets up your endorphin rush”

Evolutionary biologists have identified at least four ways in which religion might be of benefit in terms of evolutionary fitness. The first is to give sufficient explanatory structure to the universe to allow us to control it, perhaps through the intercession of a spirit world. The second is to make us feel better about life, or at least resigned to its worst vagaries - Marx's "opium of the masses". A third is that religions provide and enforce some kind of moral code, so keeping social order. Finally, religious belief might bring a sense of communality, of group membership.

The first idea - religion as cosmic controller - seems highly plausible, given that many religious practices aim to cure diseases and foretell or influence the future. It was the view favoured by Freud. However, since religious belief does not necessarily enable us to control the vagaries of the world, I find it difficult to see this as the evolutionary force behind the origin of religion. Rather, I suspect that this benefit came about as a by-product once our ancestors had evolved religion for one of the other reasons - and thus had a big enough brain to figure out some metaphysical theories about the world.

The second hypothesis, Marx's opium, seems more promising. In fact, it turns out that religion really does make you feel better. Recent sociological studies have shown that compared with non-religious people, the actively religious are happier, live longer, suffer fewer physical and mental illnesses, and recover faster from medical interventions such as surgery. All this is bad news for those of us who are not religious, but it might at least prompt us to ask why and how religion imparts its feel-good factor. And we'll come back to that later.

The other two options are concerned with individuals benefiting from being part of a cohesive, supportive group. Moral codes play an obvious role in ensuring that group members keep singing from the same hymn sheet. Nevertheless, the sort of formalised moral codes preached and enforced by today's major religions are unlikely to provide much insight into the beginnings of religious belief. They are associated with the rise of the so-called world religions with their bureaucratic structures and the alliance between church and state. Most people who study religion believe that the earliest religions were more like the shamanic religions found in traditional small-scale societies. These are quite individualistic, even though some individuals - shamans, medicine men, wise women, and the like - are acknowledged as having special powers. Shamanic religions are religions of emotion not intellect, with the emphasis on religious experience rather than the imposition of codes of behaviour.
Social glue

In my view, the real benefits of religion in terms of evolutionary fitness have to do with the fourth hypothesis. The idea that religion acts as a kind of glue that holds society together was also favoured by Emil Durkheim, one of the founding fathers of modern sociology. Now, though, we know more about how this works. Religions bond societies because they exploit a whole suite of rituals that are extremely good at triggering the release of endorphins, natural opioids in the brain. Endorphins are part of the body's pain-control system, a slow-acting mechanism that takes over when the various neurological systems of pain control have peaked in their effectiveness. Endorphins come into their own when pain is modest but persistent - then they flood the brain, creating a mild "high". Perhaps that is why religious people often seem so happy. What's more, and here's the rub, endorphins also "tune up" the immune system, which probably explains why religious people are healthier.

This may be why religious rituals so often involve activities that are physically stressful - singing, dancing, repetitive swaying or bobbing movements, awkward postures like kneeling or the lotus position, counting beads, and occasionally even seriously painful activities like self-flagellation. Of course, religion is not the only way to get an endorphin fix. You will also get a high from jogging, swimming or pumping iron, but religion offers something more. When you experience an endorphin rush as part of a group, its effect is ratcheted up massively. In particular, it makes you feel very positive towards other group members. It creates a sense of brotherhood and communality.

Monkey morality

While this may explain the immediate advantage of religion, it raises the question of why we need it at all. The answer, I believe, goes back to the very nature of primate sociality. Monkeys and apes live in an intensely social world in which group-level benefits are achieved through cooperation. In effect, primate social groups, unlike those of almost all other species, are built on implicit social contracts: individuals are obliged to accept that they must forgo some of their more immediate personal demands in the interests of keeping the group together. If you push your personal demands too far, you end up driving everyone else away, and so lose the benefits that the group provides in terms of protection against predators, defence of resources and so on.

The real problem that all such social contract systems face is the "free-rider" - someone who takes the benefits of sociality without paying their share of the costs. Primates need a powerful mechanism to counteract the natural tendency for individuals to free-ride whenever they are given the chance. Monkeys and apes do this through social grooming, an activity that creates trust, which in turn provides the basis for coalitions. Exactly how this works is not yet clear, but what we do know is that endorphins are a vital ingredient. Grooming and being groomed lead to the release of endorphins. Endorphins make individuals feel good, providing an immediate motivation to engage in the activity that bonds the group.

The trouble with grooming as far as our own species is concerned, however, is that it is a one-on-one activity, so it's very time-consuming. At some stage in our evolutionary past, our ancestors began living in groups that were too large for social grooming to provide effective glue. Such large groups would also have been especially prone to exploitation by free-riders. They needed to come up with an alternative method of group bonding. In the past, I have suggested that gossip would have played a role, allowing individuals to perform an activity that provides a similar function to grooming but in small groups rather than one to one. But religion would have taken this a step further, allowing larger groups to bond.

It is important to emphasise, however, that if this account of the origins of religion is right, then it began very much as a small scale phenomenon. Perhaps early religious practices included something like the trance dances found in shamanistic-type religions today. The !Kung San of southern Africa, for example, seek to heal rifts in personal relationships within the community by using music and repetitive dance movement to trigger trances. It is easy to see how this sort of activity could have been beneficial to our ancestors, uniting the group, discouraging free-riders, and so increasing the chances that individuals would survive and reproduce.

However, there is one last issue. Religion is not just about ritual, it also has an important cognitive component - its theology. The endorphin-based group-bonding effects of the rituals only work if everyone does them together. Which is where the theology comes in - it provides the stick and the carrot that make us all turn up regularly. But to create a theology our ancestors needed to evolve cognitive abilities that far exceed those found in any other animal species (see "The origins of religion"). It is these psychological mechanisms that have been exploited down the ages by political elites in various attempts to subjugate the rest of the community. Marx, it seems, was right after all.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18925361.100

[Meškiukas]

...vienžo einama prie išvados, kad religiją, kaipo vienetą sukūrė besiformuojanti civilizacija, savo populiacijos augimui ir gerovei puoselėti, o viso to variklis yra natūralusis biologinis opiatas-endorfinas...taigi endorfinas ir yra Dievas:)))
_________________
...meškinai nepriima kritikos iš kritinių...ps. NEPAMIRŠKITE PAŽIŪRĖT LAIKO ! ;)

[sloga]

būčiau dievulis aš šitą populiaciją su visomis civilizacijomis...transformuočiau į vieną didelį karvės blyną...
...bo per tiekos metų tiek mažai jos vienetų leido sau suabejoti bent vienu "dievulio žodžiu"...
_________________
po žemu ir pilku dangumi...

[Exuss]